tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5024740064277181412.post2290372510568860876..comments2022-11-08T10:55:49.460+01:00Comments on Incarias Speaks: General Ramblings: In Defense of non-compettitve playIncariashttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18189262841026484407noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5024740064277181412.post-72293709543732399172011-10-09T09:15:59.278+02:002011-10-09T09:15:59.278+02:00Nice, I followed this from House of Paincakes. I ...Nice, I followed this from House of Paincakes. I sympathize with you. I'm someone who chooses to play 40k precisely because it is not a fiercely competitive sport with all that that implies. If I wanted that I'd play Magic.<br /><br />I think most 40k players in the past have been like us, but times are changing. I can't see there ultimately being room for both types of player in the community unfortunately. Either a game is serious or it isn't. <br /><br />As you said, competitive players in a majority (or even a large minority) with tend to force everyone around them to conform, and as AbusePuppy said, casual players do the same. Each area or club seems to me (in my limited experience of two clubs and reading blogs) to end up largely one or the other. With the internet connecting everyone, it's only a matter of time until one approach wins out overall I think.beat roninhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01716307613961196056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5024740064277181412.post-24563150133733551712011-10-09T01:57:08.821+02:002011-10-09T01:57:08.821+02:00*shrug* I think you came off fine there, so I woul...*shrug* I think you came off fine there, so I wouldn't worry too much about the tone.<br /><br />Now, admittedly, I'm speaking from a competitive viewpoint here, but I don't have any problem with prizes or viewing the game as a sport- that's part of what I like about it. I suppose I can see where people wouldn't like that stuff, but at least from the groups I've played with, there's plenty of room left for non-competitive players to do their thing. (Clubbing baby seals is something that I don't think anyone approves of, and I've seen it come from both competitive and casual players.)<br /><br />My own feeling is that competitive play has, for something like two decades now, been actively demonized and derided by the non-competitive players; if that tide is starting to shift, I can only give limited sympathy for the majority that aren't happy with losing a portion of their domination of the game. Despite its overwhelming popularity online, competition is still the exception, not the rule, in terms of the actual players you will usually meet IRL.<br /><br />However, I can't fault you for wanting to argue your case, since that's only fair. I will, however, argue what I feel are misrepresentations of the competitive mindset and what it brings. (Which probably comes off as harsher than I really mean it, because to be honest I'll argue and discuss dang near anything.)AbusePuppyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07413248837734103198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5024740064277181412.post-61822331891611119982011-10-08T11:17:04.357+02:002011-10-08T11:17:04.357+02:00Caveat before you read this: I've just got out...Caveat before you read this: I've just got out of bed. I'm bleary-eyed and not quite awake. If I sound weird (or as a jerk), that's probably the reason. I'll come back later and edit. Maybe.<br /><br />Let's face it, this post was not actually an attempt to give a fair, balanced view of Competitive versu non-Competitive gaming. It was a direct response to posts by two of the bloggers I read regularly.<br /><br />I agree fully, that a balanced approach, where both players are open with their intentions is by far the best way to play the game. <br /><br />And as I tried to get across, this isn't actually a post to rage against people trying to play their best, it's about the increasing focus on Competitive (see the capital "C"). As in prize money. As in clubbing baby seals.<br /><br />These things, essentially, are what bug me about Competitive play - not the list-tweaking, not the endless practice games. It's the part where the attitude seems to change (at least in certain people), from viewing the game as a game, to viewing it as a sport.<br /><br />And, quite frankly, it's the "fluff-bunnies" that seem to be getting the rough end of the stick, at least in the part of the bloggosphere I frequent (which includes your own excellent 3++). The meek needed someone to speak up.Incariashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18189262841026484407noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5024740064277181412.post-73455916547317626422011-10-08T06:40:10.562+02:002011-10-08T06:40:10.562+02:00But by your own argument, then, _non-competitive_ ...But by your own argument, then, _non-competitive_ gaming is similarly forced on people, which wouldn't seem to be any better. Neither party has a right to enforce their style of gaming on the other.<br /><br />(The real solution to that problem, of course, is to be open with your opponents about what you're looking for in a game, outside of a tournament. If you can't find a way to mesh your interests or compromise in a way you're both happy with.. don't play that person.)<br /><br />With regards to the second point: certainly, Golden Daemon is going to inspire more people than tournament results; after all, that's what art does: inspire people.<br /><br />But good rules design will inspire people to build cool armies also. Good rules will make games more fun and interesting, whether played competitively or not. Good rules design will help keep the potential gap between competitive players and casual/non-competitive players smaller. And, more than anything, tournament and competitive play will drive good rules design.<br /><br />>Particularly if their express intent is to win by any means necessary.<br /><br />This isn't competitive play, this is people being jerks. I've seen players of both stripes cheat or behave unethically to win, it is not unique to any particular camp.<br /><br />"Competitive" play, as SandWyrm, Kirby, myself, and others in the community tend to use the term, is about improving your game. It's about learning to play and write lists better. It's about fighting tough matches and (hopefully) coming out on top. It is about STRIVING to win, not about winning itself. The fun is in the competition, not in the victory. This is something that I think is often misunderstood by opponents of competitive play.<br /><br /><br />I think you're laying the blame far too heavily at the feet of of the competitive player in your scenarios- certainly, he has a duty to give some when it comes to pickup games, such toning his list down or otherwise handicapping himself. But, by the same token, the non-competitive player does as well, because the game is about enjoyment for BOTH parties, not just one. I am willing to respect how you want to play the game, but you have to reciprocate or else you're being just as selfish as the hypothetical people in your examples.<br /><br />Very, very few competitive players are all about winning, all the time. Most of them also enjoy modeling, painting, lore, narratives and/or other parts of the hobby. Finding that common ground will allow the two of you to play in a way that is satisfying to both of you, NOT just to him and NOT just to you. And sometimes you won't be able to find that common ground- it happens, it's nothing to get upset about. Move on, find another opponent; there are other fish in the sea, after all.<br /><br />To be frank, it seems like a lot of your complaints hinge on "other people's decisions of how to play the game affect me," which seems awfully unfair. This is a social game, there's no way around that; if you aren't prepared to deal with other people's desires for the game, you really ought to be playing a different game, and that goes for everyone. Different groups of people will have different expectations, and if you want to play with them you're probably going to have to live with that. It's all fine and good to argue for one side or the other- I have no problem with that- but I find accusations that the opponent's camp are "ruining the game" that non-competitive players seem to toss around so often are rather disingenuous and will only harm the community.AbusePuppyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07413248837734103198noreply@blogger.com